Friday, July 18, 2008

Friend or Foe

Remember Rane was commenting on how Posh and I can't get along, and how Posh always bullies me?

Now Posh & I get along pretty well, but barely for a minute or two.


Usually Posh will browse around and check that no one else is looking at her, just like how she did above.


When she's sure no one is watching, she will behave as if she's lying on the floor, but in actual fact, she's finding a chance to nip/bite/snap me.

I always try to remain calm and try to ignore her, but who in the sane mind will succumb himself/herself to tortures?


And even when I try to get away, Posh will still continue to 'attack' me.

Please tell me that I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with such a bully!


Rane's Words

I really have no idea how to handle the dogs. Day and night, they are just chasing after each other, nipping and pawing. When the situation gets worse, Posh will attempt to bite Sugar at her neck.

Sugar will sometimes attempt to 'fight back'. But being the fatter and clumsier dog, Sugar usually loses the fight and gets bullied instead.

I used to love Sugar's ears a lot and kiss them endlessly. Now I hardly want to touch them unnecessarily, because her ears smell of Posh's saliva . Most importantly, the fur on ear stiffens after Posh's saliva dries up.

I really do hope that they will get along well soon. I am sick of them knocking over my furnitures and other belongings. Most importantly, I don't want them to injure themselves. (Sugar became a Tripod after one of their 'fights' and Posh also injured her paw. I'll post what happened to Posh at a later time.)

Meanwhile, I'll place Posh in the playpen at night, when everyone's sleeping and nobody's monitoring them. During the day, I'll let the two of them out, but when Posh starts to bully Sugar (and sometimes us) by nipping or biting us, we'll send her back to her playpen.

I'm feeling very helpless now. Sighs.

21 comments:

River said...

Posh is in a teenager stage and is looking to be top beagle. A friend of mine went through this and the dog behaviorist had her train the dog--as in sit, stay, wait for her food until the humans gave it to her, etc. In other words, the humans are the pack leader. Posh is challenging you for leadership. It doesn't take long, just 10 or 15 min. a day and consistent training. It worked wonders for my friend. She had 4 beagles.

River's mom

Snoop Lim aka Noop Noop said...

Awww... Sugar :( Mummy and I are very sad to see u being bullied. *hugs Sugar* Your mummy must be very hard pain too... Hang in there Sugar I bet ur Mama will come up with a solution soon :)

Hugs and licks

JAZZ AND DIXIE said...

Hi Sugar,
How old is Posh now? She still sounds like she is behaving like a puppy. I think River is right and that you need to establish a pack leader. Our pack goes Dad, Jazz, me and lastly Dixie.
J&D's mum

snoutbeagle said...

Hi Rane,

I agree with River's mum. Posh is challenging and needs a bit of direction. Can you take her to an obedience or manner's class? You will form more of a bond with each other if you work together through training. Positive, reward-based training (clicker training and/or using treats) works wonders with food-motivated hounds such as beagles. And learning basic commands will have Posh looking to you more for direction, i.e. you will be seen as her "pack leader."

The photos you posted made me smile because they reminded me of Diesel and Marvin. When they play they play very roughly but it's equal. They both dish it out and go back for more. Posh, being more of a puppy still, might be asking for more from Sugar than Sugar wants to give. Does Sugar ever reciprocate the play? Are you sure Sugar biting at Posh's neck isn't Sugar playing? Our boys do this all the time.

I wish I could be of more help!

Jackie

Ben & Darling said...

Hi Rane, Im not sure about the kids but mayb Posh are too playful. My kids like that too, they can play very rough and hurt each others. As long as it not too serious I think its ok.

Oorvi said...

Hi Sugar,

I saw your comment at Kess's, and thought I should come sniffing.

I guess I am going to become a beagle fan...they look so smart:)

Licks n Wags,
Oorvi

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi River's Mom,

I've been spending time training Posh, but her behaviour seems to worsen (for some unknown reasons).

I also agree that she's been challenging my authority, especially these few days when she'll charge up to me, bite me. When I attempt to grab her for punishment, she attempts to either bite me (again) or bark at me. When that happens, I will have minimal or no control over her.

I didn't want to chase after her because I didn't want her to think that I was playing catch with her. But when I stop and blocked her entrance, she'll charge up to me again. I'll need to have a rolled up newspaper or cane with me, otherwise she might attempt to attack me. Sighs.

Regards,
Sugar's Human

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Snoop,

I think my mama herself can't handle Posh, not to mention me.

Whines,
Sugar

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Jazz and Dixie,

Yeah. I guess Posh is still behaving like a young puppy even though she's almost two and a half years of age. That's probably due to how her previous owners handled her.

I've no problem trying to establish the role of a pack leader with Sugar, but I'm having much difficulty doing so with Posh. I've no idea why.

Currently, my boyfriend is the only one who has full control over Posh. The moment he leaves my house (we live separately), I'll lose control over Posh.

Sugar's and Posh's Mum

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Jackie,

I've brought Posh for her second obedience training class last Monday. She's very well behaved when I handle her on unfamiliar grounds, like for walks and class. At times, she behaves even better than Sugar.

The problem happens the moment we get home. I've no idea if she's being territorial or something (but I've just sterilised her).

Actually the photos show Sugar being bitten by Posh, not Sugar biting Posh.

Posh will always attempt to play with Sugar, and Sugar will only reciprocate occasionally. Very often, these will end up with Sugar whining or shrieking in pain because Posh really bites hard on Sugar's ears (and sometimes neck).

It makes me worried at times, because I think Posh doesn't know that she's inflicting pain on others (including me) and I have no idea how to go around correcting her. I used to use my hands to shut her mouth tight, but she has since learnt how to 'fight back'.

I wish they'll learn to get along well, like Marvin and Diesel.

Cheers,
Rane

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Ben's Mum,

For my case, it's pretty serious because Posh has come to bite me (though not fatal, but it's really painful). I don't want to risk having her being euthanised if she happens to nip/bite other dogs or humans.

I'm really envious of how your four dogs can live amicably under the same roof =)

Regards
Sugar's Mum

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Oorvi,

Welcome to my blog *shakes paws*

Beagles can be smart, but my humans say beagles can really be stubborn and hyperactive.

Sometimes they will lament that given the same time and efforts, they can probably train two border collies as beagles (in general) are stubborn and easily distracted.

However, she's so in love with beagles (us), she will not want to trade us for anyone else =D

Sweet Licks,
Sugar

snoutbeagle said...

Hi again,

After reading your comments I thought of something else.

Like you mentioned, perhaps Posh never learned how to play "nice". Perhaps she never learned bite control in play, maybe because she was taken too soon from her mom/litter or just lack of socialization in her past life.

It sounds like Posh may be using the same tactics with you as she is for Sugar to get attention. Have you tried turning your back on her or ignoring her or giving her a time-out in another room for a few minutes when she gets too rough with you? If she's seeking your attention you could correct her by simply ignoring her or taking your attention away. If you scold her or push her away she still sees that as attention so she may just keep at it. Trainer Victoria Stillwell also mentions letting out a high-pitched "yip!" (literally) if your pup nips at you. That's how pups warn other pups they are getting too rough. After yipping turn away and ignore. I dunno, I'd be curious if this might help.

Little Posh is lucky you are dedicated to her and want to make it work. There are plenty of people who would give up, so sad. Keep your chin up and don't get too sad. I have faith you and Posh can find a way to work together.

I have a wonderful friend who might also have some good advice. I'll see if I can send her your way. :)

Best of luck,
Jackie

Kate and Rob said...

Hello,

I'm the proud owner of Daizy, n Georg e two beagles who make my world go round. I also have a new puppy and a step dog pug (my boyfriends) and have fostered beagles for a few years.

Everytime I add a new foster /dog into the mix, there are challenges. I can feel your pain, concern and frustration. I hope it's okay to comment.

There are a couple great books out for adding a second (third or forth dog in my case) to the family which are short reads that I can recommend, and I have a few tricks in my tickle trunk (all positive, no yelling, squishing, or worst) which help bullies rethink their agenda's and understand it's more rewarding to be kind, patient and polite.

For short term help, there's a product called "Bitter Apple" by Grenwich that is not harmful, but tastes nasty. You have to shake before use, and if you spray it on the pup that is being used as a chew toy :) (***everytime*** they are together in the same room for the next little bit) Posh will learn that Sugar may be sweet...but tastes bitter :P and will have to play chase or tug type games to with Sugar instead of grabbing and chewing on her.

Mind you, depending on play style, some dogs are noisy and rougher then others. If Sugar doesn't know how to let Posh know "that's enough" then it's important that you intervene.

A good way to tell if Sugar does not enjoy the rough play is when they are playing....you stand behind Posh and slowly pull him away from the hind part where his legs meet his belly....to interrupt their play. Don't say a word, do it slowly, and then see if Sugar once free of Posh....comes over to play with Posh. If she comes over and tries to continue play, she might not be put off by his rough style afterall. If she goes the opposite direction or hides undersomething...then clearly you have some counter conditioning and Posh needs to learn a different approach when playing with Sugar.

Each dog has it's own playstyle and has to respect and find a common ground so that they can both enjoy it. When they don't, they need to be separated, until they can learn how to play where both can enjoy.

**a side note on Leadership/Dominance/hierarchy. Studies are proving that the above is fluid rather than set in healthy packs.

please let me know if I can be of any assistance.

Also, I always mention this to everyone. If things are bad, then please please don't feel bad about finding rehoming a dog. It would be the most selfless thing you can do, as they each deserve to live happy lives, not in fear of abuse or bullied for the rest of their years.

Kate and Rob said...

hope I didn't say to much in my previous comment, I just get worried that people lose hope or get frustrated as they don't know what else to try to make things better, so I tried to give you food for thought.

All of my dogs have had to overcome challenges behaviourally and it has made us stronger as a team working through them together. We learn from eachother.

Using positive methods where there are lots of treats, games life rewards for choosing to do the 'right" thing has been the driving force behind the success I've had.

I wish the same for you.

cheers,

katherine

bagel said...

hey sugar mum, hm my beagle just went through the same phase that you are going through so i can competely understand your frustration now. hm and for me is that me and my mum were rather badly bitten, no blood kind but got bruises all over. And for us is that she's 6-7 mths so entering teenagehood. Then what happened was that 1 day my dad came back from overseas and she bit my dad so my dad smacked her across her muzzle, 'face', and then she got a shock and went away, nv 2 bite my dad again. in fact, since then, when we raise our hands 2 smack her when she bite us too hard she knows and will like flinch and now when she wanna play bite oso juz put e hand inside mouth only n wun bite. only thing is that when cleanin her paws and she wanna snatch e cloth den will accidentally bite me. altho initially i was totally against hitting dogs n still m but for my case was tt cos 1st dog, then tried use hand to muzzle her mouth, ignore, do neck scruff thingy n all but all dun work n in fact like worst so in e end what we did was turn to this smacking muzzle thing. so yup if really worse come to worse all cannot work, den hm u might wanna try this mtd. but then again i'm 1st time owner so eh wad works 4 me might nt b e best solution but yup juz tot 2 share n offer help :) o n in my case turns out tt she absolutely adores my dad n will follow him wherever he goes so it didnt seem tt it made her scared of him or anything. so yupz.

Kate and Rob said...

A question I would pose .....if you were a dog, which life do you think they would choose if they had a choice?

1- a life of one wrong move and it is met with aggression? life in fear of not knowing what the hands that are supposed to guide you, love you and feed you will do to you? live in an unpredictable environment in a constant state of appeasement to try to avoid the wrath of a human?

or

2-live in and environment where they provide structure, and reward the "right" behaviour with tasty treats, fun, games, life adventures, and manage the environment so that you can not make the "wrong' decision.

A life where if you make the wrong choice...that wonderful benevolent leader simply looks away (you lose their attention) to let you know "oops" wrong choice...try again...so you can learn to choose the right behaviour and get on with the fun, tasty, cuddles for getting it right.

Another bonus is that the hands of the owner....teach the dog hand signals to learn new cues/commands, so you can communicate in a language that is easier to follow than words which take longer to understand..hands that are gentle and guide them, tickle their bellies, cuddle them, feed them, play with them.

Personally the second choice is much more fun and rewarding for me the human as well. I get to laugh a lot, cuddle a lot, play a lot and my pups learn to be kind and polite. My dogs went through worriesome puppy and teenager stages
and with this positive teamwork training, I can take them anywhere and they are well behaved. They are used in classes and now teach other puppies appropriate skills using their doggie version of my be kind and polite training :)

I can direct you to authors and quick exercises that can make a direct impact on the problems you are experiencing. Jackie of snoutbeagle also has a fantastic teamwork style when training her two, if you need a reference. I've seen her grow and her boys excel this past year. I'm so proud of her. I wish the same success for you.

cheers and kindest regards,

katherine

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Jackie,

Sorry for the late reply. I agree with you that Posh deems scolding and discipling her as a form of attention. I guess this has much to do with her previous environment.

From what I understood, the only time she interacted with her previous owners was during feeding time, cleaning time (bathing and cleaning of poop) and discipline time. Other than that, theres no other interaction like play or walks.

I've been observing the way she behaves and I suspect that she may understood the kind of behaviour we are expecting from her and thus when she knows she's going to make a mistake, she will look at us while doing so, hoping that we might respond to what she's doing.

Usually when she makes a mistake, we'll place her in the play pen and ignore her. I don't know if it works the same way as placing her in another room. But I guess she knows that she'll be 'released' in a moments time, and thus such 'punishment' doesn't seem that effective at times.

I'll try Victoria Stillwell's method, and I'll update you if it works.

Thanks for your advice and for roping in your friend to help. I'm really grateful for that. =)

Regards
Rane

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Katherine,

Sorry for the delayed response. Don't worry about the long comments. I'm fine with it, be it positive or negative feedback so long as it's not a ridiculous comment like suggesting Posh to be euthanised.

I've never heard of the "Bitter Apple" before, but I'll keep a look out on it. Just curious, am I suppose to spray it all over Sugar so that Posh will not bite her? If it is, then what happens when Sugar licks herself during grooming?

I've tried pulling Posh away when they're playing rough and most often, Sugar will back off or look at what Posh and I are doing. (Posh will usually turn her head around to nip or bite me so that she can be freed from me pulling her.) Thus I think Sugar is not really comfortable with Posh's style of playing.

On hindsight, Sugar has be quite a lone dog. Even though we've been trying to socialise her since she was young, she always seems more interested in sniffing the ground than mixing or playing with other dogs. When we place her in dog cafes (where other dogs are kept in this enclosed area for socialising and playing), she will always dodge from the rest (who attempts to hump her) or whine for us.

She prefers the company of humans and the rabbits that I rear, much better than dogs. In fact, she gets along so well with my rabbits, they tend to 'bully' her by crawling and sniffing all over her when the rabbits are let out on the loose.

I hope she can get along just as well as Posh.

I have to admit that at some point in time, I really wished I didn't adopt Posh, because it seems to upset our lives by a bit. But that's just a flash of thought, because I know that if I didn't give Posh a second chance, no one would.

It was just her misfortune that her previous owners' didn't love, cherish and train her well. Otherwise, she would have been the sweetest dog around. Her previous owners have no idea what they're missing on.

Don't worry. I'll never give up on Posh.

I definately agree that dogs that are up for adoption shouldn't be given the red light just because 'second hand and are not as good as a purchased dog'. That's the greatest misconception.

Lastly, I will like to thank you for your advises. It's really nice of you to drop by just so that you can provide some help. I'm really thankful for that.

Cheers,
Rane

Sugar the Beagle said...

Hi Bagel's Mum,

I have to admit that I smacked Posh once on her muzzle because her bite was really painful and i had no other chance to 'catch her in the act'. But she still didn't learn from the lesson (maybe she was too stubborn, or maybe she wasn't smacked hard enough).

But since then I never did it again, because I will like to think that any serious smack on the head might cause damage to their nose (which is important for a dog) or if i 'mis-aim', I will smack her on the ears (and she would become deaf).

When she first came, I used to use a cane very often, because I had zero control over her. But now that she's more responsive to our commands, I just make use of the choke chain.

I know that many will disagree with me on using a choke chain, and that a positive reinforcement method will be better, but I really need a fast and effective method to correct Posh, because the penalties of dogs biting human is really strict and uncompassionate for dogs in our country, thus I really had to ensure that Posh bites nobody in public, even if it's just a nip.

Cheers,
Rane

Kate and Rob said...

I love rabbits!
I had a bunny named Pillow, who ruled our house too :) Daizy and George grew up with him he died a few years ago of old age. Now in the new home we bought...we found out it came with a friendly wild neighborhood rabbit!!! I have a video of him on my blog.

if you write a day in the life of Posh and sugar, include play and potty breaks with times, along with your main struggles and how you handle them, through email and video, I can show you short exercises that you can play with Posh and Sugar during the day that actually teach them polite manners.
Jackie would have a slew of them as well. I can ask her opinion before I send them to you to make sure I've covered everything off.
The training we do is the type they use when training wild animals where if you use force...you would be injured or dead. ie... you can't hit a wolf or bear with your hand...it will have bitten it off before you even make contact.
The games are so simple that Children are encouraged to come to classes and play the exercises with the dogs.
ie.Puppies learn through play, through using their mouths and receive feedback from other pups "Yipe!" when they've been too rough. You'll notice that in healthy dog play, there's a lot of start and stop, chase and then being chased, wrestling, one on top then the other on top, very bouncy, fluid movements. When they stop for that brief second, they're actually checking it to say"we're still playing right?' I didn't do anything to piss you off right", then they begin playing again. If by chance something gets out of hand and one bites down too hard....they let out a "Yipe!" and then you notice that they both immediately stop playing. All the fun stops. (which is where we get our ....ignore when they are doing something we don't like). They can then take note at what force they used with their mouth, to ensure they don't use it again, otherwise the fun will end. That's how they teach eachother bite inhibition when they are puppies. It's a learning curve to figure out just how much pressure to use so that the play continues. Some dogs love rough play, others don't. Sugar might not be a player, but she might enjoy quiet company or a few grooming licks. They're all individuals, and it's just a matter of trial and error that they learn to get things right. Just like us, we all have good hearts and want to do the right thing.
There's a game that we play that teaches a dog that our human skin, body, clothes are far too delicate for them to place their mouth on, if you don't mind it...they can lick us, but any pressure from their mouth....makes the one most rewarding thing go away...us. In the game we let out a "yipe!" and the second they back off...we reward them with a treat, toy, game. So they learn staying away from our hands, clothes, is more rewarding then placing their mouths on us. Also, that we prefer to be snuggled and licked. They learn what humans prefer. There's a famous quote (and behavioural law) that comes from that experience.
I think it's wonderful of you to let us in to your world and are open to what we have to say. That's a admirable quality to have.

cheerios for now,

katherine